The newly-founded “Roma Foundation for Europe” represents a continuation of the support of Open Society Foundation from New York, to the development of undeniably the most vulnerable ethnic group, not only in Europe. The team, led by Zeljko Jovanovic – who was running the Open Society’s Roma Initiatives Office for many years – will have at its disposal EUR 100 million. Jovanovic is going to explain to Novi magazin readers what will be the focus of his work in the next seven years, but first, we would like to quote Alexander Soros: “With a new generation of exceptional Roma leaders determining strategy and funding priorities, I am confident the new foundation will be a dynamic force—dedicated to realizing the full potential of the Roma people, and overcoming the deep-rooted barriers they face. We will do everything we can to support the foundation and its leadership in a mission that will benefit not only the Roma, but Europe as whole.”
“The Foundation is a result of the many years of work of the Roma Initiatives Office. For ten years now, we have been making huge investments in human resources in order to build staff among young, educated Roma that can lead serious initiatives at the international level, including those with results in the field”, says Zeljko Jovanovic for Novi magazine. “We have implemented several initiatives, first of all, Roma Education Fund, headed predominantly by Roma, who are among members of both the board and management. We have also founded the European Roma Institute for Arts and Culture in Berlin in the scope of the Council of Europe and in cooperation with the German government and a broad alliance of Roma artists. We have established an investment fund for encouraging entrepreneurship among Roma and we launched many initiatives as regards civil and political participation of Roma.
We have matured through these four initiatives, realising that the time has come for the programme – which existed for 30 years within the Open Society Foundation with Mr Soros’s assistance – to be become independent and set up its own management mechanism and working methods. We have the network of organisations we have created, and we have also gained experience and knowledge to work independently of the Open Society Foundation”.
When we say “Roma Foundation for Europe”, does it include all European countries, including two that are at war, or are you based in the Balkans? How will you operate?
The name – Roma Foundation for Europe signifies many things, but first, we wanted to say that this is a Roma-led initiative and, on the other hand, it is different from other common non-government organisations. The role of the Foundation is to support and provide funds, like other foundations, but we also want to be the cornerstone of European politics and economy, European culture and cultural values –not only dealing with the current Roma situation but also contributing to a new Europe. Therefore, “FOR Europe” is not only a definition in relation to territory, it is more conceptual, we are standing up for Europe as imagined by the people, a Europe of progress and solidarity, with respect for human rights, the rule of law, liberal democracy and care for the most vulnerable members of society.
Because, in our opinion, if the governments manage to find a solution for the most vulnerable categories, the solution can also be found for those less vulnerable. We want to observe Europe and European values from the specific Roma community standpoint, not to get bogged down and limited with it, but to contribute to whole Europe.
If I understood correctly, you will simultaneously cooperate with European institutions in Brussels, governments of European states and the Roma community as the connective tissue?
That’s right, but I want us to include other organisations working in our spheres of work, such as politics, economy, and, in particular, entrepreneurship among poor groups that work in micro businesses and family businesses. These people have no other chance of employment, so they see entrepreneurship not only as an idea but as a must.
Moreover, we would include cultural institutions that form value systems in society, not only the state but other institutions as well, including organisations that form political, cultural and economic milieu in the society.
Foundation resources
Let’s repeat how large is the fund you will have at your disposal by 2030 and how and where you will make the investments.
The Foundation committed EUR 100 million. We are operating in about a dozen countries, mostly from Eastern Europe and Western Balkans. This is not a small amount of money, particularly now in economically difficult times, but this amount does not allow us to replace the states and solve all the problems of the Roma population.
The Foundation headquarters are in Brussels, but we will have offices in Belgrade, Berlin, Skopje and places where others can get involved and informed.
The Roma are the most vulnerable ethnic group everywhere, but if someone woke you up in the middle of the night and asked you where you would rather live, what would you say? Which European country?
We are the most vulnerable ethnic group in Europe. Suppose you look at the indicators, for example, in employment. In that case, Roma are definitely the most vulnerable, but not only that, if you compare the position of the Roma population in Europe with the poorest countries in the world, in this domain as a community, our situation is worse than in the countries of Africa or the Middle East.
If you ask me where I would live, the logic is obvious: my grandmother emigrated from former Yugoslavia in the 1970s, like many other Roma from Serbia, towards the Western countries. If you ask people emigrating today if they believe there will be no racism over there, they are aware of the problems there, too. However, in more robust economic systems, racism gets compensated by better earnings and a higher quality of life compared to a poor society like ours. When they leave, people do not ponder if the situation there is ideal, but rather that it is relatively better, so Roma still leave for countries of Western Europe, Germany, Belgium, Scandinavian countries, France and Austria, the same as other citizens.
Speaking about emigration, it is relevant that we still do not know how many Roma live in Serbia, what is the population structure, etc. Are Roma reluctant to declare themselves in other countries, too?
Almost certainly, there is no precise number of Roma in any of the countries. The pressure of society is so strong that people are afraid of declaring themselves as Roma. Of course, if you observe it rationally, no person in the street will ask you how you declare yourself, people assume that, but Roma still hold their collective memory, remembering what happened during the Second World War, so when the state is carrying out the population census, its intentions are somewhat doubted.
However, there is pressure from other minorities, for example, Hungarians in Vojvodina, Albanians in South Serbia and other regions and countries where Roma live for them to declare as their members, therefore, in addition to pressure coming from the media, educational system, life experience, we can add this pressure too, so the number of Roma is always smaller than in reality.
Report on Ukraine from the Roma point of view
At the beginning you mentioned that two states are at war, and we are finalising the Report on the analysis of the Roma population position during the war in Ukraine. We hear more and more about the reconstruction after the war, and we want to participate in that process and help Roma. We have experience from Kosovo, as before the war, it was estimated that 150,000 Roma lived in Kosovo, now less than 50,000 live there, some say even less than 20,000. Where have these people gone? Gone to Western Europe, the region, and some are living here in unhygienic settlements under bridges. Roma also suffered in the Kosovo war, and today, when speaking about the normalisation of relations, they only speak about Albanians and Serbs, and that was a lesson for us to try to avoid the situation in which they will only talk about Russians and Ukrainians.
Are you going to write a report on Russia?
No, because we do not have contacts and sources, our contacts are from NGOs, and Russia is not very good in that regard, and it is not in the Council of Europe anymore.
The migrations are frequent, mostly of a social nature, people leave and come back.
People go, leave and come back, but that is not crucial.
Education is highly relevant, and it is important for more and more children to attend schools and kindergartens. Only educated people can contribute to the community and benefit themselves.
Education is the domain in which we invested the most in the last years, as in 2005, we launched the Roma Education Fund, with an aim to introduce reforms along with the government institutions so as to adapt the system for inclusion of the Roma in formal education. So, what happened after all these years? Systems have not been reformed, and educational systems in general do not function beneficially for all children –look at the results of the PISA test! However, as regards the Roma population, the problem has several layers – three or four. For twenty years and more, Roma have been told that their children will have better chances in life if they get educated, however, it proved otherwise. Many students who received our scholarships have graduated, but there are no jobs.
There is no positive discrimination?
Principles are pointless when you cannot find a job, and after all these years, parents and the community see that and ask themselves what is the point of education and sacrifice for children to be exposed to humiliation in school if they cannot find a job?
Undoubtedly, education is always a value, but only under the assumption that Roma will automatically get a job after finishing school – which is not happening. Educated people, in general, do not have that experience, a diploma does not mean that you will automatically get a job, but we have obstacles that are stronger and deeper due to discrimination. It is a multipolar problem that cannot be resolved by one programme in one generation – this is a long process.
What is the importance of culture for emancipation? I hereby do not refer to the stereotype “they dance and sing”, but to the world-class art and culture.
To quote our director of Arts and Culture Institute, the cultural domain is the only positive context Roma get mentioned by. There is prejudice here, too, but this is the most positive domain of interaction between the Roma and other people. This was the reason we founded a European institution in direct partnership with all members of the Council of Europe, to expand the cultural domain through modern art, demonstrate who we are and show our contribution to the history and culture of Europe. For several years now, we have been present at the Venice Biennale. This year we had the largest exhibition concerning Roma theme in the Marseille Museum, and we have a session in the framework of the Cannes Festival.
In culture, we want to avoid getting stuck at the level of stereotype and prefer getting to the top of European cultural creativity and production. This is extremely important, and the fact that a member of our Institute, Małgorzata Mirga-Tas, a Roma woman from Poland, has won an award as a representative of Poland proves this.
From what you have said, we somehow always get back to the issue of the majority community’s relation towards minorities, in particular Roma. What is your view of the possibility for the majority community to change its behaviour?
This is a complex question, on the one hand, we have been trying for years to change stereotypes and prejudice, but at this moment, we will put a different idea on the table – the Western Balkans region is a group of small countries facing a demographic crisis. Not only do we have an ageing population, but also people are leaving. The Roma are the youngest population in Europe, and in some countries, we have four times more people younger than 14 compared to the population around us, we are even younger than the Albanian population.
That is true, but Roma’s life expectancy is the shortest!
Correct, but in fact, at this moment, the Roma population is a part of the solution for the economic future of the region, but also beyond. For example, to sustain its economic system, Germany needs another 400,000 new workers every year, imagine what it is like in the countries in the region. We should not observe Roma people as social cases but as a young population worth investing in as regards their education, employment and entrepreneurship. In 2017, the World Bank showed that society, meaning citizens, is losing huge funds because Roma are excluded from the labour market and formal economy. This is not only a matter of loyalty, solidarity and humanity, which is highly important for every society, but also a matter of who will pay for our retirements, doctors and teachers’ salaries, etc. Are we going to import the labour force from various parts of the world, or should we try to mobilise all the labour force we have in Serbia.
The Roma are the resource of the society, as your foundations have underlined for years.
Absolutely.
Romani language
Roma children in Serbia mostly study in Serbian, which is a particular issue, but how important is the codification of the language for the Roma community? With this question, we are paying respect to Rajko Djuric.
Rajko Djuric belongs to the generation that worked on that a lot, and he had a scientific basis for it, as well as the late Bajram Haliti and many others. Romani language is definitely important for us, not only as the guideline for the Roma identity but as a key for the interpretation of our history, the archive of what we could not have used or understood.
However, the institutions did not show interest in studying the Romani language.
Do you speak Romani?
I grew up in a family where, due to specific circumstances, we did not speak Romani. Later, I learned something, but it was not enough, however, I did not have an opportunity to learn it at school, as well as many Roma. Due to prejudice in society, unfortunately, many Roma do not want to learn their own language. However, the European Roma Institute for Arts and Culture gathered a group of people who worked on the codification of the language, and they have already written textbooks standardised under the European language learning system. We are here to present and offer textbooks and talk to interested institutions, which are rare.
Those who want the textbooks can get them even now.
Can you get them online?
Absolutely, we are working on it, and we are using the AI for translation.
You have mentioned entrepreneurship, it is evident that Roma are included in more domains, but their status is not formally regulated. Are you referring to that aspect?
Yes, I am. You see, in all Eastern and Central European countries, after the fall of communism, public and agricultural enterprises were privatised and many people lost their jobs. Some were able to find a job in a new market economy, but Roma remained in an informal, grey zone, and this is going on for decades. For example, in Romania, the share of the grey economy in the total GDP is 30 per cent, in Germany and France almost 10-12 per cent, but no one will even touch upon Roma’s position in reference to the grey economy.
Let’s talk about music, we mentioned before, many Roma see music as a survival mechanism – not fun, and during the COVID-19 pandemic, they could not perform, they could not obtain any government subsidies, the aid was granted to other musicians, because they simply were not registered! The same happened to people collecting secondary raw materials. There was no talk about the Green Agenda and recycling while Roma collected it, we are the pioneers of that branch of economics. Still, as many of these people have not established their legal status, they are practically criminalised today. Those who operate in that area now take up space and earn good money, while Roma, along with many non-Roma, who live off that, barely survive. For that reason, we have established an investment fund, in cooperation with the government to find ways to capitalise or increase the share capital of small informal entrepreneurs until they reach the profit zone.
This process does not depend only on us, it requires serious legislation from the state that should facilitate the transition from grey to formal economy, in particular now when large sums of money are allocated for the Green Agenda. The Foundation will invest in models that we will suggest to states so as to implement them on a broader scale.
Here, you refer to the community model in practice, but also to legislation?
That’s right, for the model of entrepreneurship operating in practice, we are not only investing the financial assets, but also helping people to grow through knowledge sharing, digitisation and networking. On the other hand, we are analysing legal obstacles, and we will offer governments the models for removing those obstacles.
It is a stereotype that Roma are lazy, but we see that people around us are working. It seems that the greatest challenge will be how to harness that energy and put it into regular flow?
That is definitely the greatest challenge because this is not only up to people. People go to the West, joining its formal system, which is more rigorous, with strict rules, but people agree to that because they know they will benefit from it.
People work, we would barely endure during all these centuries if people had not managed to find a way to survive, so through the entrepreneurship initiative, we are trying to mobilise that energy. Petrica Dulgheru, the Director of this initiative, a manager with a PhD. in chemistry, and Roma, said: “We did not develop our entrepreneurial spirit due to our education, but because we had to, we could not find a job, so we managed to start something to survive and ensure prosperity for our children.”
You are now starting, you have the staff and resources. When we meet again this time next year, which results would you be proud of?
We already have entrepreneurship models based on examples of investing about five million euros in three countries. We will talk with European investment institutions on how to increase the funding level and help more entrepreneurs.
As regards political participation, the European Parliament elections will happen next year, which is a challenge and an opportunity in several countries where we work: Romania, Bulgaria, Italy and maybe Slovakia.
In the field of culture, we will try to make greater impact at the Cannes Film Festival, which is highly relevant if we consider the importance of movies to contemporary life. Finally, we are exploring new ways to provide children with new opportunities and support programmes in education, and we will continue with the university scholarship program.
I would like to add: I hope that people can recognise the importance of launching such an organisation, the largest in Europe, probably in the world, and that people can comprehend its value for the entire society, Serbia, region and Europe as well. We are not looking for a privilege – I have seen some headlines in Serbian yellow press that we are protected as polar bears, so due to these “privileges” we live shorter – what we want are the prospects for other people also, those who are living in similar conditions, poor, losers of all transitions that happened to us.
This is not an initiative to create a larger gap between Roma and the people they live with, on the contrary, we want to create value and build solidarity with everyone maybe not facing racism but encountering other problems as Roma do.